‘Dungeon Crawler Carl’ Series: Matt Dinniman and Jeff Hays on the LitRPG’s Past, Present and Future

The Dungeon Crawler Carl series has become one of publishing’s unlikeliest success stories. What began as an independently published LitRPG novel about “a guy and a cat” has grown into a bestselling series, an audiobook phenomenon, a television adaptation in development and one of the most passionate fandoms in fantasy. Along the way, author Matt Dinniman and audiobook narrator Jeff Hays have become two of the series’ biggest ambassadors, offering fans an increasingly candid look at how Carl, Princess Donut and the ever-expanding world around them came to life.

The premise of the Dungeon Crawler Carl series is as wildly original as it sounds. After aliens destroy civilization and transform Earth into a sprawling, televised dungeon crawl, every surviving human is forced to compete in a deadly intergalactic reality show where death is entertainment for viewers across the galaxy. Among the reluctant contestants are Coast Guard veteran Carl and Princess Donut, his ex-girlfriend’s prize-winning Persian cat, who gains the ability to speak after entering the dungeon. Together they battle monsters, navigate increasingly bizarre levels and confront impossible moral choices, all while millions of extraterrestrial viewers watch, cheer and bet on whether they’ll survive.

Over the past two years, Dinniman and Hays have reflected on the series in a number of conversations, discussing everything from the accidental origins of Dungeon Crawler Carl and the challenge of balancing outrageous humor with genuine emotion to the creative partnership that has helped define the audiobooks. They’ve also recently shared—at San Diego Comic-Con—their thoughts on the future, including the planned conclusion of the novels, the growing number of adaptations and the question fans ask more than any other: how Carl’s story will ultimately end.

Presented in an oral history format, what follows are Dinniman’s and Hays’ own words—edited only for clarity and organization—as they look back on the past, examine the present, and consider the future of the Dungeon Crawler Carl phenomenon.

The past

‘I just wanted to write a really simple book about a guy and a cat’

When Matt Dinniman sat down to write what would become Dungeon Crawler Carl, he wasn’t trying to launch one of fantasy’s biggest success stories. In fact, the project wasn’t even meant to be his next novel. As he explains, the idea came while he was struggling to write an entirely different book.

MATT DINNIMAN: “I started writing it on December 26th, 2019. I sat down and I started writing what would end up becoming Dungeon Crawler Carl, and I wasn’t anticipating even publishing it. Originally, I was kind of trying to get my brain out of—or into—the mood to write another book, another series I have called Dominion of Blades. I was working on book three and I just couldn’t get into it, so I just sat down and wanted to write a really simple, non-complex book about a guy and a cat. And it kind of went a little crazy. I had no idea it was ever going to blow up to anything like this.”

Who narrates ‘Dungeon Crawler Carl’?

It wasn’t just Dinniman who underestimated what he’d created. Jeff Hays, whose audiobook performances would become inseparable from the series itself, had a similar feeling.

Jeff Hays: “I never thought it was going to be a huge success. I thought it was going to do pretty good. But the main thing was, I know Matt is sick and twisted and that I would absolutely love the project. I take on projects like that a little too much. I always pick up stuff that I’m going to like and then don’t think too much more about success. And then Matt just completely surprised everyone with just how amazing his brain works; his imagination is incredible. And now I feel stupid for doubting it because of the reaction from fans, the way that it’s embedded itself into the souls of all the people who really enjoy it. I mean, you can see the way people just proselytize constantly. They’re trying to get as many people into listening to it or reading it as they possibly can so that they have more people to talk about it with.”

The series’ growing popularity has become especially apparent at conventions, where Dinniman has watched Dungeon Crawler Carl evolve from an independent novel into a genuine fandom at events like Comic-Con.

Matt Dinniman: “They always underestimate how passionate the fans are. So they put us in rooms that are too small. They don’t anticipate how many people are going to show up for the lines, but they’ll know next year.”

A year later, after another San Diego Comic-Con, he reflected on just how dramatically things had changed.

Matt Dinniman: “I’m exhausted. It’s been a long week. And it’s four weekends in a row where I’m doing different events and this is weekend three of four, so I’m almost through it. But this has been the greatest time ever. It’s been so fun. There’s so much love from the community with Dungeon Crawler Carl. I’ve seen so much cosplay. I’ve never seen that much in one place. And it’s amazing!”

The present

‘It’s only funny to the readers’

As Dungeon Crawler Carl has grown, one of the biggest questions readers have asked is how Dinniman manages to balance outrageous comedy with genuine emotion and the horrors of an apocalyptic world. For him, finding that balance has always been one of the series’ greatest challenges.

Matt Dinniman: “It’s hard. When you write a book that’s about the end of the world where literally millions and billions of people are dying, it’s pretty awful. And anything apocalyptic, I always think, how can you deal with a tone in this sort of story? And that’s where the idea of a game show came to me, because lots of funny things happened in the book. And it’s funny to the people, the third parties watching it from across the galaxy, but it’s not funny to Carl, the main character. And it’s not really funny to Donut. It’s only funny to the readers. And I’m not the sadistic one—the ones that are reading this are the sadistic ones. It’s really difficult to thread that needle and so far I think we’ve done a pretty good job of walking the tightrope.”

While Dinniman’s writing created the world of Dungeon Crawler Carl, Jeff Hays’ performances have become inseparable from the books themselves. Dinniman says the audiobook versions haven’t changed the story so much as reinforced the characters he already had in mind.

Matt Dinniman: “Sometimes I’ll change the dialogue of the characters up a little bit based on the way he does voices. I can’t not hear his voice in my head whenever I write. I kind of wish it would stop, to be perfectly honest with you. He does such a good job encapsulating the characters that I don’t need to change anything in order to match the voice.”

For Hays, however, one character has changed considerably over the course of eight books.

Jeff Hays: “Getting to know Carl more, I think he’s one of the more complex characters in the series. So I started the voice off as practically just a Patrick Warburton impression, but as I kept going through the series, intuitively, my voice was rebelling against that. I would record it and then realize, ‘Oh wait, I forgot this Warburtonism and that Warburtonism.’ And then I would go back and rerecord and try and put it in there, and then I would lose it again. And I think that was just my instincts telling me, ‘No, that’s not who Carl is. That’s not this guy. That’s a cartoon character. And Carl’s a more real, down-to-earth, grounded person.’ So the voice evolved, I think, because of that.”

That collaboration has also extended beyond the principal characters. Dinniman says some supporting players have become much more important than he ever anticipated, often surprising him as much as they surprise readers.

Matt Dinniman: “What happens is I start writing a character and then I start to like them and I think that they’re interesting or they have something to tell further into the story. Juicebox is a perfect example. I was not anticipating using her as much as I have. I write them, then they survive the scenes that I’m writing and then I realize where I need to go with the story will involve someone like them, so I just bring them back in.”

The result is a series that continues to evolve naturally, even for its creator. Rather than following a rigid blueprint, Dinniman allows the characters to reveal which ones deserve a larger role, while Hays’ performances continue to deepen the personalities readers have come to know through the audiobooks.

The Future

How many ‘Dungeon Crawler Carl’ books are planned?

While Matt Dinniman has always envisioned Dungeon Crawler Carl as a finite story, he sees the end of the novels as the beginning of a much larger future for the franchise.

Matt Dinniman: “There’ll be about 10 books in the Dungeon Crawler Carl series. When I finish the novel of book 10, I don’t anticipate writing more novels, but we will have plenty of adaptations. We have the Webtoon that just released. We’re working on a television series. We may have a graphic novel announced in the next few weeks and Audio Immersion Tunnel, which is the audio drama version of what he reads. So many cool things.”

One adaptation he’d especially like to see is a video game, which would bring the series back to one of its original inspirations.

Matt Dinniman: “I would love to make a video game. The rights were a little tied up for a while, but we’ve had a lot of interest and I suspect one day we will get a game, but I don’t know how that’s going to look.”

He’s also begun imagining what some of the books’ most memorable moments might look like on screen.

Matt Dinniman: “We don’t know what’s going to happen with the story, but all of those boss battles that we have in the first book, I would love to see all of them come to life. Obviously some things will get cut in order for time and to change the adaptation, but I would love to see the Ball of Swine come to life in the first book.”

Jeff Hays, meanwhile, is already thinking well beyond the first season.

Jeff Hays: “I’m honestly looking forward to, I know this is deeper into the books, but I want to see the Heckla scene play out.”

Matt Dinniman: “Third book, yes.”

Of course, no topic generates more discussion among readers than how the saga of Carl and Princess Donut will ultimately end. Dinniman has become accustomed to hearing fan theories, though he’s rarely willing to reveal much.

Interviewer: “There is nothing beyond the 13th floor.”

Matt Dinniman: “Well, I think that’s something they will find out in the next two books.”

Interviewer: “There’s going to be a happy ending.”

Matt Dinniman: “That’s a theory.”

Interviewer: “Donut will end up back as just a regular cat after leaving the dungeon.”

Matt Dinniman: “Well, that would suck.”

Interviewer: “How heartbreaking do you want to go with the end of this series?”

Matt Dinniman: “I don’t know. I’ll see how I’m feeling when I get there.”

Interviewer: “Depends on the day.”

Matt Dinniman: “Yes.”

Jeff Hays has a more specific hope for how everything plays out.

Jeff Hays: “I want the happy ending, but I know Matt is an evil twisted man…”

Dinniman’s answer has remained refreshingly honest.

Matt Dinniman: “I want a realistic ending.”